Interview with Mang Ke (October 29, 2013 in his studio and house in Beijing/Songzhuang town)

Here you find the Chinese text of the interview.

Interviewer (Helmut Opletal): Let’s talk more in general first. I am quite familiar with the participation of the “Today” magazine in the street protest of October 1, 1979, but there are two or three aspects I may not yet fully understand. One is that there were officials who supported you and others who did not.

Mang: Sorry, I never knew anyone in the government who supported us! There was no official support. When we started “Today”, it was called a "people’s publication," but later an "illegal publication." It was the Public Security Bureau, on orders of the “higher-ups,” who made us stop publishing. It was a forced cessation of publication; that showed a lack of support. We had started it ourselves, with all the risks to do so.

Interviewer: But you still had more than a year when basically no one interfered. Al least there was not much interference.

Mang: Yes, we did get some... It was a period of change in China, and this presented an opportunity for us. Everything was like that then. Had the higher-ups interfered then, we probably wouldn't have been able to continue. And no one interfered, perhaps because there were changes at the top, maybe a power struggle.

So when Deng Xiaoping had finally taken the power, he shut us all down. “Unofficial” publications across the country were ordered to stop. So there wasn't anything like official support. We started our journals from our own initiative. And why? Our motive was simple. In the early 1970s, our writings were considered "underground," something that couldn't be done publicly. Our texts were called "underground literature."

1978 looked like the perfect time then. China was changing, and we seized this opportunity to start our publication. Our goal was freedom of writing, freedom of speech, and freedom of publication. That’s what we wanted to fight for. And we caught the opportunity. The changes at the top gave us almost two years of publishing freedom. So we could bring out “Today” during two years, nine issues, almost one every two months. That was our chance before they shut us down. Once things at the top had somehow stabilized, those in power concluded that our activists and publications weren't all that positive and wouldn't have a desirable influence. So they shut us all down, as simple as that.

Interviewer: Did you debate with the authorities at all during those two years? Or did they just order you not to do this anymore? Were there any contacts or interaction with them?

Mang: No, no… There wasn't really any contact. Back then, we weren’t sure who represented the government or who was in charge. To be honest, there were some, like those from the Central Committee of the Communist Youth League, who approached us. Since most publications in China were official, they suggested we could work for the government and stop publishing our own magazine.

But for us it was simple. We asked, "Doesn't Chinese law say there was freedom of publication and writing? So is it legal for us to publish our journal?" They confirmed there was freedom of publication. So we asked, why don't you just let us publish this? Why should we work for other magazines? We want to run our own journal. We didn't know if they represented the government or not, because at that time, it wasn’t clear and we hadn’t received any notification or explanation.

Interviewer: So, what about those articles or novels you wrote during the 1970s? When your magazine “Today” ceased publication, could you publish any of those works?  

Mang: No. After our journal had to stop, my personal situation was like this: I didn't find any good job. I had been a factory worker, but they fired me. Until now, I haven't had what they consider a formal job. In 1980, the factory didn't want me anymore and removed me from their payroll. I'm over sixty years old now and still without a regular job. In China, it's called “being without a work unit,” and I have no work unit, I don't have any insurance, no medical or social insurance. I rely entirely on my own to support my family and children now by painting and selling these pictures. This is China and my personal experience. I have never received any government benefits in this country and relied entirely on myself.

Interviewer: Have those who run "Today" also published any articles in official magazines? 

Mang: Oh Yes! Many texts were later published in official magazines also. In China, all journals can be called "official." Now. You can only bring out a publication if the government approves it: private individuals are still not allowed to do this. For example, if the two of us wanted to start a magazine, we wouldn't be allowed. So they are only official magazines. But later it became possible for us to publish in official periodicals. I can still publish my texts now, they are actually happy to publish something I propose to them. Time has passed, and things have changed considerably.

Interviewer: So it was authors and artists who wanted to publish their works, and in 1978, when politics were a bit relaxed, you decided to start the magazine "Today". How many were you in the beginning?

Mang: Not too many. In total, only about thirty authors published their works in our magazine. That included poetry, fiction, and even illustrations. We only had seven editors and designers for “Today”. Back then in the 70s, we didn't know many authors like us who wrote the same kind of texts and poetry, they were truly few and far between. But later, “Today” had a huge influence, and many know about it, even young people. But back then, there weren't many authors who produced this kind of literature.

Interviewer: You said about thirty people, where did they all come from?

Mang: They were all young people. When we started the magazine, I was only twenty-seven. Most of these youngsters were unheard of yet, and they just wanted to write. Afterwards, quite a number of them became famous, and some became renowned Chinese poets and writers afterwards. In the beginning, they had no fame and took the chance to publish through our magazine, which was completely different from the official publications at the time.

Later, when they had become more influential and well-known, they also started publishing in official magazines. These official journals also changed. They became more open and started printing items that they wouldn’t bring out before. It had become much easier to publish. It was impossible back then. That's why we came to start our own magazine.

Interviewer: Those who started “Today”, were they young workers and employees, or in government offices, or were they unemployed? 

Mang: Most of them were workers or employees. Some were so-called “educated youth” sent to the countryside during the Cultural Revolution, some had later attended school. They were a little bit older, not like the very young students of today. They already had some experience in the countryside or in factories.

But they were all young, all under thirty, like Bei Dao, who is a year older than me. The oldest among us was born in 1949. No one was older than that. Ah, yes, there were a few older ones. One was named Cai, Cai Xiqiao, who was considered an “official” writer at the time. He has passed away since. We printed his articles in "Today". We also put out works of another person, Huang Yongyu, a painter. We published his writings too, but didn't use his real name Huang Yongyu. So there were actually two older ones, but they didn’t use their original names. Mang Ke and Bei Dao are also pseudonyms that we have used from 1978. Later nobody remembered our original names, and today no one would call me by my real name. You find it only on our ID cards and passports.

Interviewer: Your magazine “Today” focused entirely on art and literature, publishing also a few works of art. But I don't recall it discussing politics very much?

Mang: Different from other independent journals, “Today” wanted to be a literary magazine. In that era however, literature could never be completely unrelated to society, nor could it be completely unrelated to politics. The act of publishing a magazine as such was a political act in that society, because it meant going against the authorities. Running your own publication was considered illegal. Furthermore, many of our specific activities were things that people who were supposed to be writing or publishing books, would not normally do.

Take the Stars Art Group as an example. You know their background. Huang Rui was one of the initiators when we founded “Today”. Bei Dao, Huang Rui, and I discussed this together at Huang's home. So the “Stars” were also related to “Today”. That includes later key figures from the “Stars” group, such as Ma Desheng, who published short stories and some of his prints in “Today”. Qu Leilei created illustrations, which were printed in the magazine. The writer Acheng was an artist who who later became a novelist. He also published his illustrations in “Today”. Wang Keping, another founder and organizer of the Stars Art Group, wrote and published the script of a play in our magazine. This means that the Stars Art Group and “Today” had a very close relationship. Huang Rui, Ma Desheng, and Wang Keping were the most important, and our relationship at that time was that of very close friends.

When the first exhibition of the Stars Art Group, held in a small park next to the art museum, was forbidden, our magazine staff went together to help them, firstly to get their artwork back, and secondly to protest. You know, that was in 1979. On October 1st, 1979, during the 30th big anniversary of the People’s Republic, we, the Stars Art Group, held a protest march, and I was the one who read the letter of protest, as one can see from a photo.

I read the manifesto, announced the march; we were all at the front. We were the leaders and the organizers of that march. So you see, although our magazine's objective was to be a purely literary publication, our actions were under those circumstances inevitably related to society and politics. "Politics" meant for us our most basic rights, as writers, artists, or authors; it was about fighting for these rights. For us, what we did wasn’t a political event, but it meant demanding a basic human right.

Interviewer: But going to protest was quite brave. Wasn’t it? 

Mang: At that point, it didn't matter anymore. When we first started the magazine, we were already going all out; we bravely took this first step. Once taken, the second step is not that important any more. It doesn’t matter whether you're brave or not. As long as we believed in something, we were going to do it.

Interviewer: Did you discuss internally at your journal whether or not to participate in the protest march?

Mang: Yes, we did, and opinions were quite divided! Already before – we originally had seven members on our editorial board – we had diverging opinions. Of course, that wasn't about the October 1 protests, but the fact that the government wanted to ban independent publications and prohibit them from operating. Hearing this, several important and renowned publications in Beijing, like the “April 5th Forum”, “Human Rights in China”, “Fertile Soil”, “The Spring of Beijing“, and Wei Jingsheng's “Exploration” discussed holding a joint protest.

Around early 1979, after finishing the first issue of our magazine and preparing the second, the people in charge of all these publications talked about organizing a protest march, and they wanted “Today” to participate and send someone to sign the petition.

Huang Rui went first, but he came back hesitant to sign. He thought he needed to discuss this with us first, and we needed to think things through more thoroughly. Then he asked me, as Bei Dao and I were the founders of “Today”. I said. Ok, I go myself and see what the situation was. There they explained the planned activities to me, and I agreed that we could sign, adding “Don't think we were afraid to participate in such an event. We simply thought that if the authorities banned the magazines, we would be banned too.” It wasn’t possible to keep us alive while banning everything else, we thought.

When I returned from signing the document, a debate broke out among the seven of us in our editorial group. A majority opposed my signing, arguing that as a literary publication, we shouldn't participate in such activities. Bei Dao was the only person that supported me. He shared my opinion, saying that even though we were a literary publication, if the authorities wanted to shut us down, we wouldn't escape it. But the others demanded that I post a notice on the Xidan Democracy Wall stating that the decision represented only my person, but not the “Today” magazine.

The arguments became quite heated. Bei Dao was more supportive, saying that by making him bear the burden alone, without the “Today” editorial board, he would feel betrayed. The dispute was passionate and couldn’t be reconciled. Bei Dao the announced, "Since we can't reach an agreement, Mang Ke and I will resign from our editorial board. The five of you can still run it, the two of us will just be authors writing articles." But the remaining five refused.

Because Bei Dao and I were the initiators of “Today”, they said, "If you two withdraw, what can the five of us do?" Bei Dao was quite decisive and responded, "Then the five of you withdraw.  We'll just keep it up.” That included Huang Rui, who was also one of the five. This effectively disbanded the “Today” editorial board. In the end, only Bei Dao and I remained. But later, Huang Rui came back, mainly because he was in charge of art editing.

Not long after, Huang Rui started the Stars Art Society, focusing his energy on that. So, starting from the second issue, we recruited again, finding five more people and establishing a second, new editorial group. They published nine issues, one every two months. After “Today” had to disband, we published three more issues of literary exchange materials. At the beginning, “Today” was openly available for sale; we had subscribers, and each time it was published, it was also posted at the Xidan Democracy Wall, where we sold it. Later, we had to stop selling because they wouldn't let us anymore. As a consequence, we printed fewer copies that we gave to each other as gifts.

Interviewer: After the five had left the editorial board, there was still the issue of this march in October. Were there any disagreements about this protest? 

Mang: We continued publishing the magazine. And after this restart, there were no disputes about the protests. The entire editorial team joined the protest and participated in the march. The new members definitely supported us and agreed with what we were doing.

After the second issue, when our editorial team had split up and just Bei Dao and I were left, Bei Dao suggested that our board should be run more formally, with an editor-in-chief and a deputy; this was basically the two of us, him as editor-in-chief and me as deputy.

So the two of us became fully in charge, the others in the editorial team were actually assisting us. Back then, all publications were mimeographed; we had to print and bind them ourselves. Many of those who helped us were volunteers, and the actual editorial team of “Today” had only seven members.

Interviewer: Besides participating in this protest march, how was your relation with the other political magazines and independent publications? 

Mang: We actually had a lot of contact; we were all close friends with people like Xu Wenli and Liu Qing from the “April 5th Forum”. At that time, I used to live in the editorial office of “Today” which was located in the home of Liu Qing's younger brother, Liu Nianchun. [He was sentenced to three years in prison in 1981 for "counter-revolutionary propaganda and incitement." and left the US in 1998.] We also had a very good relationship with Wei Jingsheng. I knew all these people quite well, including Zhao Nan who later also became close to our editorial board. We also knew those from “Beijing Spring”, but we had less contact with them.

Interviewer: Did you continue publishing your own magazine independently? 

Mang: We still ran our own magazine. But we knew these people and met regularly. Nevertheless, we mainly focused on our own journal.

Interviewer: Later, when your magazine had to stop publication, the artists were also affected. Some went abroad, while others stayed. You decided to stay in China. Why didn't you also look for opportunities abroad? 

Mang: I also thought going abroad, traveling and broadening my horizons would a good thing and I would enjoy it. Later, I've traveled to many places and countries where I was invited by poets to participate in cultural activities, poetry festivals, or by universities. I started going to France in 1988 when the French Ministry of Culture had invited a large delegation of Chinese writers.

France helped me a lot at that time, and I had good relations with French friends, some from the embassy and others involved in culture. The invitation came from the official writers' association in France. When I got invited, the Chinese side didn't want to let me go at first. They said they couldn't find me, and they even didn't know me. But the French responded that they knew me well, and they really wanted me to go there.

Another obstacle in May 1988 was that I didn't belong to a formal work unit. Later I heard that the French government had negotiated with China, and they eventually agreed to let me go to France to participate in that event. But they wouldn't include me in the official Chinese writers' delegation as I had no connection with the government or the Writers' Association.

So they allowed me to get a passport for ordinary citizens. But at the police station, it was a mess and a lot of trouble. By the time I got my passport, I was already supposed to fly there the next or the other day. But I was immediately issued a visa, so I managed to catch my plane to France.

In France they treated me very well in 1988. All the other writers returned to China after ten days, but I stayed. I was even invited to Saint-Nazaire [a town in western France] for three months. I could stay with people right by the sea. I think I was the first Chinese writer to go there. They provided accommodation, and I had people who took care of me every day. I was provided food and drink, and even some pocket money every month.

Before, they used to invite Latin American writers there, and now they invited Chinese; I was the first. Later, quite a few others, like [the “Stars” poet] Yang Lian, also went. The conditions were excellent, but none of them spoke Chinese, so sometimes, when it was important, we had to call a translator in Paris which caused quite some difficulties.

They had invited me to stay for three months, but I almost went crazy after just one month. I said, "No, no, can’t I go to Paris instead?" I had no one to talk to, I had to ask them to translate and make phone calls. I finally stayed for a month. In this situation, I wrote a poem for the City of Saint-Nazaire, a poem about the town which I presented to them. Then I left and went to Paris.

After arriving in Paris, I had nothing to do, so I spent my days shopping and wandering around, which was quite nice. Later, Italy proposed to me to participate in the Milan International Arts Festival. I was the only Chinese person. There were musicians, all sorts of people. It was great; they even gave me some money to travel around Italy. I went to Sicily and did a long tour before I returned to Paris.

After having gone back there, the University of Barcelona in Spain established a Chinese language class and invited me to cut the ribbon. Yes, they invited a Chinese writer to give a speech [laughs]. So I went to travel to Spain. Back to Paris, I decided to use Paris as my base now. Then several diplomats in London, including one from Australia, invited me, so I traveled for sightseeing to London as well, but I always returned to Paris.

Although I couldn't speak French unfortunately, my stay became really great; I got to love Paris. People kept inviting me to dinner. I knew many sinologists who had been in Beijing before. I wasn’t able to communicate with people who didn’t know my language, but they spoke Chinese.

In Paris I stayed until December. They were very kind to me again, hoping I could stay in France. But I really didn't know what to do in France. I wasn't painting, and I couldn't talk to people, so I couldn't really work there and earn money. I regularly attended activities; some embassies invited me to poetry readings, but as I recited my poems in Chinese, no one could understand. They'd pay me a small fee for my participation, a little money, but I still felt quite bewildered being there.

Then, in December 1988, Bei Dao called me and reminded me that December 23 was the 10th anniversary of the founding of “Today”, and I should come back to Beijing to celebrate this. So I went back. [Laughs] What was I doing in France? When you go somewhere, at least one thing is important, that is to speak the language. And you need a source of income. Without money, you always have to rely on others like I did. To be honest, the French helped me a lot. But while I was in France, I always hoped that I could earn some money and make a living. But the only way to make money was by giving speeches at universities or reciting poetry somewhere. I didn't have much else to do; I just spent my days roving around.

So I came back to China and basically never went out again. I came back at the end of 1988, and in early '89, a German cultural organization in Hong Kong invited writers and poets from Hong Kong and Taiwan. I also got invited, so I traveled to Hong Kong. Not long after I being back from Hong Kong, June 4th happened, and I couldn't go out anymore.

This lasted until 1992 when there was an international poetry festival in Rotterdam, Netherlands, and they invited me. Unexpectedly, they let me go abroad, so in June 1992, I went again. After the Rotterdam Poetry Festival, Australia proposed to me to participate in the Melbourne Arts Festival and give a lecture at the Sydney National University. Therefore I wrote very little in the 1990s, as I was constantly being invited abroad.

Later, I went to the US, to Germany, to Spain again, to Italy, and then Japan. I kept traveling back and forth. Things were good back then; we got invited, and our works were translated and published. They'd propose to us to give what they called lectures, to tell our stories about our experiences. They'd cover our airfare and other travel expenses, and even gave us some pocket money to live on. So the 1990s went pretty good. We broadened our horizons a lot and visited many countries.

Interviewer: Do young Chinese today still know what happened in the 1970s and 80s, and are they interested in it? 

Mang: What they know comes from the interviews that journalists do with us or from the internet. Some people inevitably ask questions about the past. Much of what I've talked with you, has also been published in Chinese newspapers, magazines, or online. But the accounts aren't as detailed. They might their best, but they don't write about things they feel they shouldn't mention. For example, when I tell about our protests, they never write about this, and there are other things they dare not write about.  […] Online, it might be a bit better; some things can be written there. But from what I can see, even there, they don't dare to write everything.

Interviewer: Anyway, reporters from the Chinese mainland are still interviewing you nowadays?

Mang: Yes, just before, at noon, one reporter left after an interview with me. He was from the "Culture Daily" (Wenhua Bao) of the Chinese Ministry of Culture.

Interviewer: So what was he interested in? Did he mainly want to know what you are doing now?

Mang: He was interested in my painting. “Yes, yes, but let's not talk about the past,” he said, “but about the present, how I went from writing poetry to painting.” We basically didn’t touch on politics. Only young people who are genuinely interested, still care; most people don't. Like today, the journalist from the “Culture Daily” said to me that people around him aren't all that interested in poetry. There are many people writing poetry, and many who like to read it. But he remarked that the younger generation around him didn’t seem to have much interest. We, on the other hand, had undergone significant changes over the years, and our influence was still considerable, he said. Particularly some university students, when they study literature, talked about us. Many youngsters interested in literature had heard about us. “They'll pay attention to you, follow your interviews, and learn about the past,” he assured us.

Today's young people were mostly born in the 1980s, even the late 1980s, or after 1990. They are the current generation of university students. When we started our magazine, they weren't even born yet, so they have no idea about that history. If we don’t tell them, they will not know anything at all. So that's how it is, how young people are these days.

Think about how many years have passed. People in their twenties and thirties now don't know about us, because they were still kids when we were in our thirties running our journal, right? “Today” was thirty years ago, so many young people today don't even know. If we don't talk about it, they won't understand what happened. The official China doesn't talk about these events very much. Those interested in literature know what happened, but not everyone is interested in literature, and as I can see, those who are interested are a minority, not too many.

Interviewer: Do younger people who do have interest in literature, sometimes call you to obtain information about what happened back then? 

Mang: Let me tell you, these reporters who come to interview me, including the one from the “Culture Daily” today, they are all younger people themselves, born after the 1980s. There are no older ones, they're all young reporters. So if they want to interview me, they definitely need to learn about me first and look up some information online before they can ask me any questions. If they don't know anything, what would be the point of interviewing me? So if young people are interested in us, they can find out about us.